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Subject: TRAVELLER digest 395
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			    TRAVELLER Digest 395

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Plasma Trails, Missiles, and Relativity
	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  2) Re: TRAVELLER digest 394(CyHiggin)
	by "Bob Brown" <Robert.Brown@newcastle.ac.uk>
  3) RE: Fine Definitions and 'English' Practice
	by David Elrick <Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
  4) TL-9 Viiborg Skimmer
	by "Svenson G N" <svenson_g_n@space.honeywell.com>
  5) Re: Uses for black globe energy sinks
	by "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
  6) couple of weapons
	by Joni M Virolainen <jonimv@evitech.fi>
  7) Demographic-Technological-Economic data: The Regency (summary)
	by Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:44:16 -0600 (MDT)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Plasma Trails, Missiles, and Relativity
Message-ID: <9508290244.AA01577@Rt66.com>

Hi,
 
> In  the real world any missile that would approach a starship would be 
> detected, regardless of what kind of a drive the missile used. The missile 
> can't hide in the sea clutter or behind a horizon as real-world(tm) missiles 
> do to approach their targets. There are radars today that can detect a grape 
> (if it was made of metal) on several hundred kilometers range. A missile 
> present a larger cross section than a grape.

That assumes that the target is active.  Admitidly, in BL/BR as it stands there
is no reason to ever use passive sensors---but if you've fixed the sensor 
problem (so actives have a place in the world) ships might not want to drive 
around active.  And why are tiny missiles special?  Other ships/craft aren't
always detetcted?  Were our F117s always detected over Iraq (aside from "hey
there's an F117 up there, the SAM site next door just blew up!"  The adavnces
in stealth need to be thought about, as well (once they're just pellets, they're
not trailing plasma).

> >> Given the grotesque ranges and efficiencies given to lasers, the target has
> >> plenty of time to shoot a contact missile full of holes before it reaches
> >> him. 
> 
> >But you have an absolute limit on the number of shots you can fire in the
> >canon of TNE (800).  And 5% of tasks *always* fail.  The TNE (and the real, 
> what
> >a surprise they match :) universe is an uncertain place.
> 
> Yeah, but if we can detect the missile at medium range, we have several 
> turns to shot it down, thus the chance increase.

OK.  Medium range.  Your Scout fires at one missile and kills it (allowing
weaponss to engage multiple targets in some kind of inside a hex close in
defense is one thing, but at "normal" ranges, you get one laser, one kill).
The other 9 in the spread hit the next turn (Scout going 4, missiles going 6, 
and then they take up the slack at 12gs (relative velocity is 22).  How many
can that laser shoot?  My rules would allow each laser to shoot twice in this
case, once before a det-laser would go off, and once right after.  Maybe this
should be one target for each 10 shots (assuming they're in the same spread, 
so they aren't too far apart in an angular sense).  For every 5 shots at a +1
diffmod per shot.  That means the scout could shoot 10 shots at the 9 
remaining missiles.  Since 5% will get through, he might just kill all of them.
If there were 20 he'd be in trouble.  Assuming this is only the case *inside*
det-laser range, then KKMs wouldn't be too efficient, but they are *still*
possible.

I think we need to state what rules are being used here.  If we stick to TNE/
BL, the missiles don't *get* detected a few turns out.  And regardless of
what rules you use, if you use the TNE task system 5% will get through each
line of defence.  Period.  And one KE missile at 10-20 hexes a turn will wreak
your whole day (even in a BB :-)  I don't have anything against the det-laser
weapons, but saying "they'll all get shot down (because I say so), so they
don't exist" seems silly to me (I'm arguing out loud with GDW, BTW :)

>>down that you do for a det-laser.  Now you have 10E6 targets smaller than your
>>beam cross section (laser).  Hell, how do you *see* them?  If you do how do 
>you 
>>kill them?
> 
> Easy I wouldn't use laser when they get on detonation range, I would use 
> repulsors. The mass of the pellets would be too small to get through a 
> widebeam repulsor (ok repulsors aren't beam weapons, but you may "aim" it in 
> general direction) And before the missiles came too close I would use 
> anti-missile-missiles. They would certainly hit. When your target goes 
> head-on towards you it is only to place the AMM between yourself and the 
> treat, and send thousands of pellets against them. The lasers pick of what 
> ever they might hit after that, and then we got the third line of defense 
> against the pellets, my above mentioned repulsors.
 
Repulsors?  I don't have FFS in front of me.  What TL do those start getting
used?  Will they be much use to people in RCES at TL12?  All the defenses you
mention have a place, but then you have to add them to your ship design, and
FFS ships are kinda tight as it is.  ESA will work against pellets, actually.
I put ESA on my ships as it is for just that reason.  I bet they are cheaper
than the repulsors... 

> In my campaign, all targets are always detected, because there are nowhere 
> to hide within a mapboard, except planetside or on an asteroid. But you have 
> to get a lock-on to identify what you see.

I was planning on a slight revision to my sensor rules.  It will have auto-
matic Bogey Detection at some range (same as against active, I imagine) if
the target is using gturns.  Even if you give a missile a Bogey Detection,
it'll be hard to lock the sucker (again, at least 5% won't even be locked on.
Ever (er, well, in a given turn, by a given ship).  

I don't debate they'd be somewhat easy to kill, but they are really nasty if
they hit.  They way to find out is to fix the rules so they make sense, allow
both (more?) kinds of missile, and see what different battles show out (this
will vary by TL, no doubt).

And there is still the fact that not all ships will be able to have a missile
defense at all time... hell, look at the Valor.  That ship is screwed---that
or it wastes all its offensive power to defend itself, *then* gets killed.

-Merrick


------------------------------

Date:          Tue, 29 Aug 1995 09:22:20 +0000
From: "Bob Brown" <Robert.Brown@newcastle.ac.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 394(CyHiggin)
Message-ID: <199508290821.JAA03163@cheviot.ncl.ac.uk>

If you think Great Britain has been improved when the milk snatcher 
(Maggie T) took over then try living here, the conservatives have 
reduced Britain to a Third world economy via a massive drive to 
privatise everything to become more like the US, no thanks. Hello 
Tony. The point is on the financial debate it all politics an example 
would be the Conservatives, talk big on defense but have slashed 
defense budgets to the point where Britain has a barely functioning 
military. Britains nuclear capability is due to the Labour party, a 
fact they don't like to boast about. Goverment spending is about 
politics not about what is good for the country, everthing is done 
for the short term because the're only in power for a short term.
Sorry for the rant
Bob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 95 12:39:00 PDT
From: David Elrick <Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
To: "traveller%mpgn.com" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: RE: Fine Definitions and 'English' Practice
Message-ID: <30436C84@pc136>



Ted7@world.std.com (Mitchell K Schwartz) said:
>These are fine definitions for late 20th century warship design.  They
> are not accurate to describe mid-century (WWII) ship design, early 20thC 
ship
> design, 19thC ship design etc.

I never claimed that they were. I answered the question with information 
that I had. Maybe I should have made it a bit clearer that the information 
was specifically post-WWII Royal Navy definitions.

> Also note that the Russian recent practice has been to specialize
> destroyers for AA or ASW work.

But Russian destroyers are roughly equivalent to RN/USN frigates. Russian 
frigates are roughly equivalent to RN fast attack boats (I don't know what 
the USN equivalent is - assuming there is one).

> This is recent English practice only.

OK, I've calmed down a lot since I read this, so I'll try not to get upset 
and rant. You made an unfortunately all too common mistake and (hopefully 
unintentionally) gave considerable offence.

I was born in the west of Scotland (i.e. in the Hebrides). This makes me two 
things: it makes me Gaidhealtachd (lit. of the people of the Gael - i.e. 
Gaelic) and it makes me Scottish (or British if you want to be picky). IT 
DOES NOT MAKE ME ENGLISH!

Sorry. Rant over.

You were right to point out (as perhaps I should have done) that the 
examples were specific to the Royal Navy at a specific point in history, and 
that other navies do things differently. I merely quoted what I know.

One of the things I used to find interesting when I was in the Navy (Royal 
Navy) was visiting other warships and seeing how they do things.

Dave

 ---------------------------------------------------------
British by birth
European by parliamentary decree
Scottish by the grace of God.

Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk
 --------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 1995 14:06:12 U
From: "Svenson G N" <svenson_g_n@space.honeywell.com>
To: "Traveller" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: TL-9 Viiborg Skimmer
Message-ID: <199508291758.NAA03383@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

I am beginning to design ships for a TL-9 pocket empire where I am going to set
my first TNE campaign. This is my first attempt at doing a ship design with
FFS. Please send me your comments and suggestions.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Viiborg - 200t TL9 Fuel Skimmer

General Data:

Displacement      200 tons                Hull Armor        30
Length            34 m                    Volume            2800 m^3
Price             94.3298 MCr             Target size       S
Configuration     Cylinder SL             Tech Level        9
Mass              1882.637 / 1720.4 tons

Engineering Data

Power plant       75 MW Fision Reactor, 1 yr duration (7.5 kl radioactives)
Jump performance  0
G-rating          1 G, 2000 tons thrust Fusion Rocket
G-turns           50 (200 using fuel carried as cargo), 10 m^3 each (Hydrogen)
contra grav lifters
1 Engineering Crewstation, 1 Maneuver crewstation

Electronics

TL9 Computer linked controls              3 x TL9 Std Computers
Imaging radar                             TL-9 Avionics (130 km NOE)
30000 km radio                            30000 Maser comm
30000 km HRT sensor                       1 Electronics crewstation

Armament

none

Accomodations

Life support      basic, no artificial gravity
Crew              5 (1 x maneuver, 1 x electronics, 1 x engineering,
                  1 x maintenance, 1 x command)
Accomodations     none (the crew lives on the mothership or spacestation)
Cargo             21.837 m^3 ships locker, 500 m^3 for rocket fuel, 1500 m^3
                  for fuel, 7.5 m^3 for radioactives (fision reactor)
Air locks         2
Fuel scoops       15 % of surface area, 1680 kl/hours
Fuel purification 500 kl in 6 hours, 1500 kl in 18 hours

Area  Surface hits                  internal explosion

1     1 air lock, 2 maser ant,      1-5 quarters, 6-10 electronics,
      3 Avionics ant, 4-7 radio ant 11-20 engineering
2     1-8 HRT ant                   1-4 engineering, 5-7 cargo, 8-20 hold
3     fuel scoops                   hold
4-7                                 hold
8     fuel scoops                   hold
9-11                                hold
12    fuel scoops                   hold
13-16                               hold
17    1 air lock                    engineering
18-20                               engineering

Damage table

Sensor (HRT)            1h          Sensor ant (HRT)        1h
Commo (radio)           1h          Commo ant (radio)       1h
Commo (Maser)           1h          Commo ant (Maser)       1h
computers               3 x 1h      crewstations            5 x 1h
life support            1h          Power plant             5H
Fusion rocket           3H          Contra grav lifters     1H
Fuel purefiers          6H


Notes:

The Viiborg is designed to be carried aboard the Tempere Modular Transport. It
is also used at refueling space stations built around gas giants. The crew live
on the mothership or space station. The fuel on the Viiborg can be used by the
Tempere directly as if the Viiborg were an auxillary fuel tank or it can be
pumped into the Tempere's normal fuel tanks.

The Viiborg is built on Mnemosyne (0232 Foreven sector) in the Wilds.

------------------------------------------------------

I hope you find this useful. I will be working on the Tempere and it's modules
and small craft next.

Thanks,

Greg Svenson
gsvenson@space.honeywell.com (or gsvenson@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 18:01:05 GMT
From: "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Uses for black globe energy sinks
Message-ID: <74@odonovan.demon.co.uk>

Roger wrote :

> Or as you write power the spinal mount and other weapon systems. The 
> drawback is that you need someone to shoot at you.

Using the energy from a black globe to power stuff doesn't make much sense for 
combat, its not too reliable a source of energy. What I meant was that HPGs are 
the major limiting factor as to how powerful a weapon you can mount, power 
plants themselves are much less of an issue until you really overpower a weapon. 
So if you used this jump HPG (powering it from the normal power plant), then you 
could power your spinal PAW or whatever to the maximum possible power for its 
length was, without needing to fit all of the giant HPG you would need for this. 
 
> There may even be a feasable way to build transporters this way. Instead of 
> spending volume for fueltankage for several parsecs, the craft got only for 
> one, but the drive itself are built for J3 or whatever. A blackglobe is 
> mounted for "refueling" the jumpdrive HPG. A laser cannon is then providing 
> the ship with enough power for a full jump. The problem with this is that it 
> will be a risky venture at a frontline, or in areas with more than 1 parsec 
> between the systems. The crafts is dependant on a outside source at all 
> times to be able to jump far enough.

I really like this idea. One thing I wonder though, is whether all that hydrogen 
in the fuel tanks is just there as fuel to charge the HPGs. If it was, wouldn't 
it be much easier to charge it off the normal power plant. It seems that jump 
needs the hydrogen for something more than just charging the capacitors up.


> --------------+-------------------+-----------------------------------
> Roger Myhre   | myhre@oslonett.no | http://www.oslonett.no/home/myhre/
> HIWGmember 142| Some people have one of those days, I got one of 
>               | those lifes.
> --------------+-------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 

-- 
Brendan 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 22:55:40 +0200 (EET)
From: Joni M Virolainen <jonimv@evitech.fi>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: couple of weapons
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9508292207.A6376-c200000@evitech.evitech.fi>

  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

--2014177543-851401618-809729740:#6376
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII


So here is couple of my designs. Feel free to comment.


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--2014177543-851401618-809729740:#6376--

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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 17:36:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Demographic-Technological-Economic data: The Regency (summary)
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.950829172925.27354A-100000@hubble.sheridanc.on.ca>


Yes, I spent my involuntary leave of TML doing something worthwile: a 
among other things, a partial economic analysis of the Regency: I'm 
posting only the summary here, as I doubt if TML would 
like such a large posting of statistics.

All information is based strictly on current UWP data of the Regency, c.1200.
(See Guatney's files at the Ghost site)

Regina: I'd like to point out how extraordinary Regina subsector 
is.  First, it has the highest tech, most populous system coreward of 
Rhylanor: Efate (1705 A646A30-E B Hi In An   100 RE K4V).  [Note: why 
isn't Efate, rather than Regina, capital of the subsector?  Any 
Regina historians out there?]  You can expect a continual stream of 
starships moving to Efate, making it the premiere port coreward of Rhylanor. 

[And you can note two other things about Efate, A) it's rabidly pro-noble 
government and B) it's utter lawlessness]

  Also, Regina has a remarkably large population of poor, low-TL 
systems (TL 0-8), about 30.95 Billion, mainly on recently-conquered 
Ruie/1809 (9 B), Menorb/1803 (3 B), Roup/2007 (2 B), Enope/2205 (7 B), 
and Algine (9 B).
  [Note: I'm assuming that 'low-TL' = 'poor', an assumption that has some 
backing in Traveller literature.]

  Finally, Regina is the most popoulous subsector in the Spinward 
Marches, even including non-Regency territories. About 1/5th of the 
subsector population lives here, about 35% more than it's 
next-populous subsector, Mora. [Even though Glisten subsector has 9 high-pop 
systems, one more than Regina subsector, it's total popualtion is still 
substantually less.]

The Heartland: A lot of the wealth and sophistication of the Regency is 
focused in a region of 10 subsectors, just rimward of the Regency 
centre. (Subsectors K,L,O,P of the Marches, Subsectors I,J,M,N of Deneb, 
Subsectors D and H of the Trojan Reach, and Subsector A of Reft.) 

Here is Tobia and Vincennes at TL G, Trin, Glisten, Mora, Dekha and 
Lintle at TL F, Pallique, Lilad and Newmann at TL E, and a host of lesser-tech 
high-pop systems: just under 50% of the Regency high-pop systems and 
57% of the Regency population is over here, including 4 out of 6 "B" pop 
systems, and 6 out of 10 TL F+ high-pop systems.

Outlying Regions: Inar subsector (Deneb F) has a pretty-balanced, average 
high-tech trade triangle between Kubishush/0917 (BAB6AAA-D), Liiri/1016 
(A542998-E), Starn/1417 (B000996-F) and Ashasi (E9D5AA8-D). 
[Ashasi's high population is not as important, due to it's 
non-dominating TL and it's E port.]  A good place for several 
shipping lines to start out from.

Deneb subsector (Deneb K) is the great Regency bulwark to trailing, 
dur strictly and only to Deneb. (1925 B537BDD-D N Hi Cx   110 RE 
A2Ia).  Despite it's distance from the Heartland, it's still a very 
powerful world, combining a decent tech level, the best port of the 
"B" pop worlds, and a LOT of people.  Moreover, it effortly dominates 
the subsector, giving it even more clout.  It's probably the 
single-most-powerful world in the Regency, all things considered. 
Why else would the subsector, sector, domain, and interstellar government be 
named after it? 

You can run the entire coreward half of the Spinward Marches with just 
Efate and Rhylanor.

If I were Regent, I'd work very hard to try to elevate one of those "B" 
pop systems to Starport A, TL F: it would be either Deneb or Lilad. Lilad 
(Zeng subsector (Deneb-N): 1135 C447BAE-E Hi In    124 RE K6V) has great 
potential, but Deneb has more political clout.  If I'm thinking 
correctly, you can bet there's a lot of maneovering between these two 
systems to see who get's the good stuff.  And, of course, only one system 
wins: two much money is earmarked for the Reconstruction to permit both 
to get the goodies, I suspect.

There are a number of religious system governments that are worth 
watching: Deneb and Lintle definitely, as they dominate their regions, 
have ten's of billions of people, have good ports and a decent tech level.
[Deneb we already know about. Lintle (0503 A739AE8-F N Hi Cp  504 RE K2V) 
has 50 billion people, or 44% of all people who's on a TL F world.  When 
Lintle's theocracy speaks, Mora listens.]

It should be noted that if the Regency is run in a strictly democratic 
way, Deneb sector will be making all the decisions: and the six high 
population systems - Borlund/1406, Askigaak/0629, Deneb/1925, 
Beaxon/1439, Lilad/1135, and Pikha/1633 - will be making all the 
decisions for Deneb, as they have 81% of Deneb Sector's population, and 
55% of the population of the entire Regency.


************************************

Wealth within the Regency: income per year

I also decided to calcualte the income of the Regency and it's high-pop 
systems, using this formula: 

Average income per person per year= 24,000 Cr 
Multiply by .67, to account for the unemployed, children = 16,080 Cr
Modify by the TL *below* that of the world. (To account for tech 
     differences on a world.  The TL in the UWP refers to the highest 
     level on a world: often, most of the population lives at a TL or two 
     lower than the offical version.)

I'm aware of the fact that this method of calculating wealth leaves 
something to be desired: Steven Bonneville did a better job using the 
World Tamer's Handbook.  However, I can't handle all those formulas, so I 
used the above formula instead.  The 24,000 Cr figure was selected as a 
"shot in the dark" figure: 250 Cr * 2 = 500 Cr per skill level: 500 Cr * 
4 levels = 2000 Cr per month, 2000 Cr * 12 months = 24,000 Cr.

[I really should have double-checked this... ah well, I like the numbers 
anyway.]

O.K: here we go...               [All numbers in Trillion Credits]

Spinward Marches                                 NHP = no high-pop systems
          B: 189.8    C: 561.3    D: 342.5
          F: 135.1    G:   7.2    H: 498.2
          J: NHP      K: 452.7    L: 593.3
M: NHP    N: 176.9    O: 467.2    P: 237.3

Deneb                                       Reft
A:  165.6   B: 1447.2  C:    7.2            A:  818.5  B:   8.0
E:  250.8   F:  929.4  G:  104.5            E: NHP  
I:  884.4   J:  640.0  K: 1313.8            Trojan Reach
M: 3485.4   N: 2550.3  O:  NHP              C: 504.9  D: 361.8
                                            G: 144.7  H: 371.5

Totals: Marches  3661.5 TCr    Deneb    11 778.6 TCr
        Trojan   1382.9 TCr    Reft        826.5 TCr

Total:  Regency 17649.5 TCr

A brief aside on wealth: let's assume the Earth's net income is 16 
trillion dollars per year, and the world wealthiest man earns 2 billion dollars 
per year.  Scaling this up to the Regency, the wealthest man should earn 
2.2 Trillion credits per year.

Again from my almanac, there's about 400 billionaires, 50,000 
multimillionaires, and 2,500,000 millionares.  Doing a lazy and quick 
scale-up to the Regency, there should be, say, 400 trillionaires, 50,000 
multibillionaires, and 2,500,000 billionaires. (Big economies can produce 
both more rich people, and greater wealth per individual.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alvin Plummer
"Preserve what we created, Norris, and remember what we stood for."
                               - Strephon, 179-1126
"Is there an statistican in the house?"
                               - Alvin Plummer, Aug. 28, 1995

Reply to: alvin.plummer@SHERIDANC.ON.CA
------------------------------------------------------------------------------




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End of TRAVELLER Digest 395
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